bossymarmalade | (no subject)

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retrospecticus

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I wasn't going to say anything about this post, because everybody else is linking to it and more eloquently than I can. I'm one of the three as opposed to the one out of four, as it were, so I've never felt that anything I could say about the subject is very useful; I have no advice, no inspiring story. But I've always been the girl who gets mad, and so that's what I can do here. Because I've seen some people say that they don't like the "meme", that they wish it would just...go away.

And that has to be the most horrifying and frightening response that I can think of; not the kneejerk idiocy of the trolls (because there will always, *always* be jackasses who think they're being edgy by being mentally repulsive), but these bland sort of expressions of discomfort, these "that's not nice dinner conversation, dear" mumblings. The stories about families who disown people who've been molested or assaulted are terrible, of course, but it's the families who shrug off and ignore these things that chill my blood.

Maybe I'm saying this because my family does this, the whole dance of pretending that bad things aren't there because talking about them is awkward. My mother told me once about a family friend's confessions that her grandfather had raped her, and my mom laughed nervously through the whole thing. Maybe my mother's like this because she went through something as a girl; I don't know. I don't think she would tell me if she had.

Anyway. After reading a remark from somebody who wanted the whole thing to "go away", I read every one of those comments in

misia's post from beginning to end because I was so angry. The worst thing to do is look away and pretend it isn't happening and I'm not seeing people who I *know* telling their stories; maybe someday I'll be able to offer comfort to my own loved ones who've survived abuse without choking on my awkwardness and rage, and my need to keep silent.

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Comments? (http://www.livejournal.com/users/serai1/51520.html)

Sure.

SHOVE OFF.

How's that?

uhm, i don't know if you're talking about me or not, because i don't want people to stop posting about their experiences, and i want to be supportive, i do, but i also can't read these right now. if that offends, i really am sorry. i can delete my post?

I posted before I saw your post, actually.

I agree that it's powerful to read and feel the stories people are sharing. For a lot of people it takes a huge measure of bravery to even put the words on the screen, let alone hit "Post Entry."

I fear the opposite of the "just go away" thing. I fear that someone (who, I'm sure "means well") is going to get ahold of this "meme" and make up some fucking colorbar that'll be posted in every third journal you read, minimizing a very real issue to a few colorized pictures that completely miss the point with the "No Pity. No Shame. No Silence." text below it. Then there will be a need for some swift shutting up.

It's already happened. Crystal Gamgee (she of the 'my Hed is Pazted on yay!' wank) has done a colour bar. It's not appeared on my flist yet but then, my flist is people who mock her on a regular basis, so.

Oh god.

Thanks for the info. I'm so completely appalled.

Especially because it was Crystal Gamgee who did it! I couldn't help but laugh at that, because, man. Nothing on lj can ever be irony-free, can it?

it's so appalling it's amusing. it's so amusing it's appalling? yeah, man, i don't know. i think my brain is broken by this news.

Well, if it had to happen, at least it was her who started it. People know she's a dink. Maybe only her babysitter and lawyer will pass it on.

;-)

I did the dance of 'wtf!' when I saw it. Esp. as she posted it within the comments. I may have done a 360 degree headspin.

In a way, I'm kinda glad I'm about to depart for places internet-free (moving house, yay...) because if the colour bar does make a mass flist appearance, I won't see it and will be spared the rage and headspins.

oh christ yes. you know, i'm all for sharing my story and giving people the space to share theirs, but a colorbar, jesus, that's exactly what i'm afraid of when this kind of stuff comes up in online communities.

It's like how you wish that all the illiterate people would just *not* support whatever you're saying, because they bring the tone of your argument down. Pitfalls of lj, man.

you know, anger at and refusal to ignore important issues is very supportive. it matters that people acknowledge these events.

I hope you never do have to deal with this issue more directly, but I know that if someone in your life does, you'll be there, doing the best you can.

thank you

My reaction has generally been to wish extreme harm on the people who've hurt my friends, to the extent that I've *prayed* for divine retribution against them. Which I'm sure is not theologically a Good Thing, but, argh -- I feel so helpless. It's good to know that being angry can be supportive.

You're a hell of a girl, Dine, and I'm happy to know you.

this is me nodding my head, firmly, over here ;)

I felt so nervous posting this! Thanks for the backup, honey.

you got backup, plus a bonus shit-stirrer! you know you're top of the line, then ;)

I think the posts are good--my concern is that it's going to turn into an LJ kerfuffle/fandom wank/flamefest, and this is one issue that I'm completely unable to engage in LJ bullshit around. I'm reading all the posts. But I'm not playing the fandom reindeer games, should that start. Fortunately, fandom has about a five-day attention span, even for critical issues like this one (in fact, our collective attention span for important stuff may be shorter than for gossip and such), so I'm not worried that I would have to stay away for long, should it be necessary.

Just about everything turns into a kerfuffle -- I wouldn't be surprised if this does, too. Now that you've brought it up, I'm glad I said my piece now, because then I won't feel any need to engage in it later on down the line, during the five-day attention span. Heh.

It's is interesting because this post and the comments are exactly the kind of thing that gets blamed for starting kerfuffles/wanks and they are the type of responses that I enjoy reading the most. You and I agree, but somewhere, some one is gnashing their teeth and typing a response, and there you have it: instant boom. .

It's not that we need less opposing opinions or inflammatory posts. We need people to get a fucking backbone. To take ownership of their beliefs and just say what they think. What the hell is going to happen? You get defriended? Mocked? Because someone doesn't agree with you on the Internet? How much stock do you really want to put in that person anyway? Like you said, this topic (like so many others - I'm gonna add the election as well because I've been posting about it like there's no tomorrow) is too damn important to play stupid ass politics or popularity contests.

If someone wants to post a colorbar or make icons, I'm gonna scroll and yeah, I'll probably mock in my own post, but who cares? My opinion and reaction has no more importance than someone elses. It's the fucking Internet! The only thing we're responsible is for ourselves.

To the poeple who really do believe in the thought/fandom police are the ones who perpetuate the shit to begin with.

And Maggie, it goes without saying but thank you.

We need people to get a fucking backbone. To take ownership of their beliefs and just say what they think.

Yes! And people need to be open to opposing opinions that are well-presented, too; I've made big loud posts in the past and had my opinion changed by the end of the day, due to the smart and reasonable responses that people have given. There's nothing shameful about having a lively debate and discovering that you didn't know so much about something as you thought you did. And I am super-glad to have friends who don't mind telling me that I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.

the poeple who really do believe in the thought/fandom police are the ones who perpetuate the shit to begin with

The idea that disliking a person/thing/idea in secret is somehow more *honourable* than saying so upfront is what boggles me, man. I bet half the people whinging on and on about other people being "negative" spend hours on AIM or whatnot cutting folks to pieces. It's human nature not to get along with everybody; a little honesty would probably be best for us all. Of course, *you* know (and constantly demonstrate!) that better than anybody else, honey.

There's nothing shameful about having a lively debate and discovering that you didn't know so much about something as you thought you did.

That's about the most noble outcome of all! And I think the reason you can make these posts and the reason they generate such different responses is because you are receptive to more voices than most poeple.

I bet half the people whinging on and on about other people being "negative" spend hours on AIM or whatnot cutting folks to pieces. It's human nature not to get along with everybody; a little honesty would probably be best for us all.

LOL! There's a reason why AIM and email should remain private. Some honesty, some sensitivity. It all works hand and hand. And dear God yes about the double standard. If you hated journalfen and you're on greatestjournal, shut the hell up. If you hated the hate thread and yet you felt a need to to reference it 57389749102 times in your journal, please stop. If you hate the spread of negativity in fandom and yet all you do to combat it is whine about the old days, newsflash, you're spreading the same depressing shit. And! If you think being secretly two-faced is morally superior to public pissing contests, then I don't even want to know you.

*grins* I'm not sure we agree 100%, actually. On this issue, I would like there to be fewer inflammatory (if by inflammatory you mean "purposely agitating") posts . There's enough emotional intensity on this issue as it is--it doesn't need to be agitated artificially (look at the response in LJ from one post). (FWIW, I don't consider this post to be inflammatory--but I expect bigger stuff to follow; it's the way of LJ.) (And could I have any more parentheses? I don't think so.)

And I'm also, speaking strictly for myself, not particularly interested in engaging in discussion about the actual issue of rape and sexual abuse on LJ (you'll notice my discussion is almost 100% meta here). I recognize the need for such discussion, but it's a hugely emotional issue for me, with impact both from my own experiences and from the reactions of other survivors in my life. I'm not capable of or interested in having a discussion about those experiences or my reactions here, which is about as far from safe space as I can imagine.

I'm not suggesting the discussion be stopped, but I have a right to not want to engage in it, and I have a right to wish for some small space in the world that doesn't have this shit in it at all . I know it doesn't exist and I won't get my wish, but I still have a right to wish it, and to express that wish.

And frankly, coming down hard on someone who is a victim/survivor because they don't want to see shit about this issue here is both cruel and un-helpful. Sometimes backbone takes awhile to re-build after having been torn down, and sometimes it's not about backbone, but personal privacy. And personal choice, which is really, really important for people who've had that choice taken away in some way.

And frankly, coming down hard on someone who is a victim/survivor because they don't want to see shit about this issue here is both cruel and un-helpful. Sometimes backbone takes awhile to re-build after having been torn down, and sometimes it's not about backbone, but personal privacy. And personal choice, which is really, really important for people who've had that choice taken away in some way.

yes. yes. thank you for putting into words how I feel about the issue-- far more eloquently than I could have.

I know it doesn't exist and I won't get my wish, but I still have a right to wish it, and to express that wish.

You nailed exactly what I was trying to say. LJ is all about point and counter point. Whether it's done to instigate or to acknowledge or show support or to simply share doesn't really matter in the end. We all get different things out of this place and one person's happy place is another person's hell. Your need for privacy and self preservation didn't stop you from replying to this post and replying to my comment, and thank God, because your point of view is valid and it bears repeating.

All I am trying to avoid is the knee jerk reaction to be so politically correct. Sometimes its helpful and beneficial and other times it's completely ridiculous. We're talking about rape. About pshyical and emotional abuse. Do we really need disclaimers and gag orders? The very notion of policing such a personal and pervasive topic is insulting. If you don't want to share beyond acknowledging that you've been through it, then you don't have to and you shouldn't have to. But I don't think making a post and wishing everything away is going to help you, and it certainly isn't going to help the original poster.

And frankly, coming down hard on someone who is a victim/survivor because they don't want to see shit about this issue here is both cruel and un-helpful. Sometimes backbone takes awhile to re-build after having been torn down, and sometimes it's not about backbone, but personal privacy

Your backbone was never in question. This comment is an example of the kind that I love reading. You disagreed with me and you told me and now I can absord what you have to say and and mull it over and re-examine my position about overly personal or complex subjects and how they should be presented on LJ.

My only overriding opinion in regards to LJ is that we are only in control of ourselves and our friendslists and our filters. Because you disagree with someone, doesn't make them wrong and it doesn't make you right. However, disagreeing does mean that you're allowed to have your reaction and you had better be prepared for someone to come back with their own.

See, I was reading

stargems's comment in more of a general lj-type way, and not as the "need to get a backbone" comment being directed specifically at abuse survivors. Which is why I agree with it, but not because I think that people necessarily *need* to or are morally required to speak up about things (not on lj, at any rate). Lots of people use their journals as fannish places, for fun and relaxation, so it's understandable to not want to address sensitive issues and topics on them.

What I took it to mean is that when people *want* to express their opinions, they shouldn't feel constricted about doing so. They shouldn't have to worry so much about people disagreeing with them that they figuratively bite their tongues. I know those are big words, and there's something to be said for learning to get along instead of constantly breaking out the megaphone, but I truly do believe that in *some* instances -- different for every individual -- there are issues that we should never feel ashamed about or be persecuted for speaking up on.

Believe me, I understand the need for privacy; I was pretty much raised on secrecy and keeping a stiff upper lip, and for the most part, I like it that way. But I think it's important for me, personally, to learn how to open up a little. Basically, that's all I made this post for -- to talk out the confusion I was feeling, in the hopes that other people would understand and maybe have advice. I certainly don't want anybody to feel like I'm judging them for deciding to keep their own counsel.

*snug*

Last night, I read through the entire post and (then) thirteen pages of comments, and was shocked and horrified both at the numbers and at the numbers of people I knew. I thought I was "aware" on this issue, in that abstract way anyone's "aware" of something they've never experienced firsthand (unless you count a very brief Peeping Tom incident in college, which I don't, I've never been a victim of sexual violence), and found out I was anything but.

Couldn't sleep thinking about it, got up, read some of it again and saw that some people were coming out about non-sexual abuse, domestic violence and such. Then I thought about how matter-of-fact I am about the huge prevalence of domestic violence in society, something else people like to deny, because I have witnessed it firsthand in my own childhood and seen how indifferent and callous people really are in reaction. Then I thought, "So what's a 'survivor,' anyway? What if you never got hit but you knew you had to be on your best behavior because if the abuser got angry at you that they'd turn around and abuse someone else you loved? What if once you jumped in to stop it and it did turn physical, but you knew it would and were so angry you actually hoped it would? That's still not 'really' violence, though, is it? Do I have to define myself, even part of myself, by these experiences?" Then I thought, "I don't want to think about this anymore, I want to think about Star Trek." I wonder if some of the people saying they want this to "go away" are saying it because they know there's something in there touching on their lives less directly yet painfully, somehow, but don't yet know where to place it in their heads and hearts and so they back away.

Or maybe I'm being far too charitable, and it's actually a fistful of right twats.

Then I thought, "So what's a 'survivor,' anyway?

There was so much discussion about the terminology -- survivor, abuse, violence -- that I'm kind of wary about using any of it myself. I got hit at school, and I got hit at home; but in a country where everybody hits their kids and accepts that teachers will beat them, does that really count as violence or abuse? None of it bruised or cut me, so I've never thought it was. I still don't. But other people might have a different view of it, and I find that I resent that implication. It's all so confusing.

Then I thought, "I don't want to think about this anymore, I want to think about Star Trek." I wonder if some of the people saying they want this to "go away" are saying it because they know there's something in there touching on their lives less directly yet painfully, somehow, but don't yet know where to place it in their heads and hearts and so they back away.

I totally understand that, because my first reaction to *anything* unpleasant is to gloss it over and pretend that it's not so bad. I do it constantly, about bad things that happen to my friends and bad things that happen to me. I would much rather watch The Simpsons than listen to my friend tell me how depressed she is; I guess it's only human nature to back away from things that make us uncomfortable. But I think there has to be a point where you recognize that even if you don't know where to put something and how to deal with it, that the issue should be addressed. *Has* to be addressed.

And now I'm coming off as all tiresome and earnest. Doesn't happen often, at least. *g*

"I got hit at school, and I got hit at home; but in a country where everybody hits their kids and accepts that teachers will beat them, does that really count as violence or abuse? None of it bruised or cut me, so I've never thought it was. I still don't. But other people might have a different view of it, and I find that I resent that implication. It's all so confusing."

I think the important thing to remember is that only you get to define yourself, whatever the issue. I don't consider myself a survivor. I do consider myself a witness, and I consider it important for witnesses to remember and defend the truth and to act on it in their own behavior.

"I would much rather watch The Simpsons than listen to my friend tell me how depressed she is; I guess it's only human nature to back away from things that make us uncomfortable. But I think there has to be a point where you recognize that even if you don't know where to put something and how to deal with it, that the issue should be addressed. *Has* to be addressed."

I think that you do have to face important issues like this, but I also think that escapism exists for a reason and there's no shame in knowing when you need a strong dose of it--just call it the Sullivan's Travels principle. Sometimes people back away because they just aren't ready. But eventually, in whatever way, it has to happen.

Okay, enough earnest from me. :-)

heh. i both agree and disagree with you at the same time. No wait, scratch that. I mean I agree, ultimately, with what you're saying. It's just that there's a number of people who are not willing to share their personal experiences, good or bad, or otherwise participating actively out of being private, not because they are shrugging things off. Dismissing them into the "that's not nice dinner conversation, dear" group is a mistake, I think. I went off about in my lj, since it's a bit of a sidetrack to your post, but yeah.

*g* And I commented to your post, too, but anyhow I still have things to say. (I always have things to say!!) Quite honestly, I'm so fucking reserved about personal stuff that one of my friends said she should get me a t-shirt that says, "a *clam* shares more". So I understand what you're saying about choosing not to make big long earnest preachy posts like this one I just made, because my natural tendency IRL is the same. I certainly didn't mean to imply that everybody NEEDS to talk about this stuff out loud or at length; what I meant by the "dinner conversation" thing was that some people just don't want to acknowlege that it happens at *all*, especially in their own families. It's that active attempt to normalize and devalue what's happening that irks me.

Very true. Though I can hardly say I'm with the folks who are shocked and appalled by all the glossing over, the negative reaction, the suggestions that these posts are just bids for attention - no matter what you say on lj, no matter how personal, or painful, you must accept that there will be people who will try to tear you down for it. I feel unable to respond to the testimonial posts going around, mostly, because I feel ultimately like my response is pretty irrelevant.

I think, for me, the fact that I am so unsettled is why this is important. It's not easy to read and I don't think it should be but it's too damn real to ignore.

Yes. That's *exactly* it, in one terse and well-worded comment. Thank you.

I certainly agree. for some reason I didn't think, when I made my post last night, that this was going to be something everyone was going to talk about. but I'm glad it's happening simply because I'm sick of people feeling ashamed of giving an opinion about it. these things aren't just for those who've been sexually assaulted, because that's not how problems get addressed.

the worst thing about it all to me is that we don't give enough seriousness and concern to the issue, just as you were saying about how awkward it all is to talk about. Of course we say 'rape is bad' but what does that really mean to someone who is so wrecked over it happening that they can't even live inside their skin anymore? we try to console and assure and dissuade guilt but we certainly don't tell them every day with the way we talk about women and treat women and the way crime statistics still eliminate male rape consistently.

I think that what you said about the causes, the bigger societal picture that *leads up* to rape not being given the attention it deserves -- that was very true and insightful. Because, yes, like you say -- we all know 'rape is bad' and talk about it with solemn faces and hushed tones, but so much of our response to it is cleanup and aftermath, therapy and getting over the trauma. When we really should be looking at ourselves and society and the media and what makes people think they can get away with molesting their children and raping their partners, and even more, what *allows* them to get away with it.

we try to console and assure and dissuade guilt but we certainly don't tell them every day with the way we talk about women and treat women and the way crime statistics still eliminate male rape consistently.

Definitely. When an issue becomes a buzzword, there's naturally the backlash to deal with, like all the stories about people who don't believe in the one-in-four statistic. Not that I'm saying that it's a concrete statistic, but just that people refuse to believe that sexual abuse is that prevalent and go so far as to *scoff* at the notion.

Maybe I'm saying this because my family does this, the whole dance of pretending that bad things aren't there because talking about them is awkward.

God, I just wanted to say that I can totally relate to that. And what's horrible about it is that now I'M the same way and I have no idea how to break myself of freezing up at the hint of anything Serious.

God, tell me about it! I do this frantic shuffle whenever Bad Things happen where I try to lighten the mood and look on the bright side, and if I'm depressed or unhappy I downplay it like nobody's business. When you're brought up that way, it's awfully hard to break.

Amen to this post.

Hallelujah, sister.

I'm glad other people have voices when I don't.

Thank you.

Hell, I'm just glad I was able to be somewhat coherent. I always feel so impotent and tangled up about things like this, man.

What I don't understand is how people can be so fucking flip about it in that thread. Be an insensitive ignorant asshole in your own life, whatever, but when someone who goes through that - when scores of people who have gone through that - can find the courage to admit to something that has so often been villified and blamed on the victims...? I feel like kicking the crap out of all of them.

In a way, it's almost easier to bear when somebody is silenced by force, because it's so tangible and *there* and you can point at it and go, "that's wrong. what you're doing is violent and wrong." But when people are silenced through derision and indifference? It seems to me so much more cruel and insidious. I'm sort of glad that

misia froze the thread, because those idiot trolls were having too much of a good time in it. grrrr.

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