(no subject)

[bossymarmalade]

I don't start a lot of statements by saying "As a person of colour", but -- I don't think that having a Caucasian character say "nigga" as a punchline in a fanfic is cute or hip in any way. At all. I find it very disturbing and disappointing that many people in this fandom think it's acceptable.

Comments

[shutyourface.livejournal.com]

That's just NO. No no no no no.

[bossymarmalade.livejournal.com]

That's exactly the reaction I had. It's funny how people don't understand how loaded some words can be. I guess that's what it's like when they've never been used against you.

[babygotbass.livejournal.com]

Whoaaaaaaaaaaa. I have never seen that in a fic. Good thing or I'd be pissed, too.

-- Erin

[bossymarmalade.livejournal.com]

Baby, I am neo maxi mega pissed right now. I understand word reclamation, but as a cheap joke? Said by Chris Kirkpatrick? No fucking way.

[periodicstorm.livejournal.com]

I don't either. Sometimes I feel like shouting out, HEY I'm black so what your mouth around me. Then again how would I know what people were really thinking.

[bossymarmalade.livejournal.com]

True enough. Half the time the fact that I'm Indian doesn't hold the foreground of my thoughts, so when people say racist things it usually takes a moment to click that they're referring to *me*. I forget that people don't understand what it's like to live with that feeling.

!!!

[mumblemutter.livejournal.com]

As a person of riotous...well, maybe just a nifty shade of brown color, I just want to say...nigga what?

I wish I had a "what the shit is this" icon right about now.

cm

Re: !!!

[periodicstorm.livejournal.com]

nigga who?, nigga wha? nigga who?*sorry couldn't help the Jay-z reference. go ahead.*

[trixiesfic.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I saw that. Just. Not. Cool.

[bossymarmalade.livejournal.com]

So amazingly not cool I'm astounded to see it recced by people who I thought would know better.

[jcssexitary.livejournal.com]

Not cool at all.

It's just not amusing.

[bossymarmalade.livejournal.com]

Not in any way amusing. Especially since it's used in such a twee, blithe way.

[throughadoor.livejournal.com]

damn straight, baby. and i don't like to start a lot of statements with "as a queer woman," but ditto on her use of the word "fag." you know i've already contacted her, and i'm absolutely not above trying to shame her into seeing the error of her ways any way that i know how.

[bossymarmalade.livejournal.com]

I would have gone the private e-mail route myself, had you not been met with such complacent self-righteousness. It's unbelievable that anybody would defend using "fag" and "nigga" in a JOKING context as being in character.

[between-names.livejournal.com]

Good god. There is absolutely no excuse for that. At all. Ever.

I hope you sent feedback saying as much.

[bossymarmalade.livejournal.com]

I was going to send feedback and handle it privately, but kel mentioned to me that her e-mail about the word usage was met with a complete lack of concern and, in fact, "justification" for it. After that I figured there was no point.

And maybe this is a confrontational way to go about addressing the issue, but damn -- it really, really bothers me. ugh.

[rosebee.livejournal.com]

As a caucasian person, I'm horrified that people would actually write/say that, and think that it would be ok.

[bossymarmalade.livejournal.com]

Indeed. I'm not black, but Lord knows I've been called that by ignorant people so I know what it's like. I don't like seeing any sort of racial epithet used in such a cavalier fashion, man.

[lemniskate.livejournal.com]

you said in an earlier comment that maybe this was a confrontational way to address this--but you know what? good. It *should* be confronted, and publicly. Obviously other people saw it and objected and didn't say anything--myself among them, though I managed to make it through the story. I'm glad you said something, I'm glad kel emailed her, and I should have done both myself. So good for you.

[sugarhigh9104.livejournal.com]

I don't think that having a Caucasian character say "nigga" as a punchline in a fanfic is cute or hip in any way.

Or ever ever EVER. That which we would not do in real life... And if this chick is going around thinking it's okay for that to happen in real life, I have a HUGE fucking problem with her.

And, um, besides the very serious issues that this brings up? Chris Kirkpatrick? Using that word? Ever? What fucking horrendous characterization is that???


Ant

[sugarhigh9104.livejournal.com]

I also wanted to add that I'm sorry you had to read that at all, Maggie. ::pats you:: How unpleasant.

Look! ::points at icon:: Chris and Justin! Dry humping! Feel better? =)


Ant

[xoverau.livejournal.com]

Maybe I'm jumping on a land mine here--I probably am--but I'd like someone to explain the offense of those particular lines in that particular context to me. I grasp the independent offense of the words 'nigga' and 'fag'. However, in the story, it seemed that the punch line was not "haha, someone said the N-word" or "haha, someone said 'fag', how amusing", it was using a prevalent cultural phenomenon to close a joke about the adjective 'bitchy' from earlier in the text.

Even though I consider myself to be a 'queer' person, I was not only not offended, I laughed at the line and took it precisely as it was intended--a joke told by a dog about being a dog, not a slam against any sort of minority. I'm usually hyperconscious of any sort of 'ism'--racism, genderism, homophobia.

Since obviously you read nopseud's writing, does she seem like the kind of ignorant Nazi who'd be out there seeking to make minorities the butt of humor? Deliberately inserting her unethical mores into unsuspecting character's mouths? Do you think she's a closet homophobe who just likes to write slash?

It may have been an unfortunate choice of lines--I remember thinking when I read the first draft that I probably wouldn't have used that exchange, only because people might attack it out of context--but (as a 'queer' person, heh) I'm willing to cut it slack.

[xoverau.livejournal.com]

I might also add that I was disappointed to see that you didn't include a link to the story or quote the passage in question in your original post, since (had I not read the story myself) I might've condemned the author without any context. I certainly wouldn't have had the information required to make a decision about her word choice. Not including links seems inclined to inflame controversy, rather than settle it. I also think it's a shame that you didn't at least try to address your concern with the author before doing so.

[adamlizz.livejournal.com]

In case some of you who started screaming without reading the story may have missed this: The reason the word nigga, and fag, were mentioned, is to show that a person of colour can use the word "nigga" and a gay person can use the word "fag", and there is nothing wrong with that. It was an example.

Any word can be offensive when taken out of context. I think you should look around at the whole before you pick at one word.

[bossymarmalade.livejournal.com]

I did read the story, and I think those words are completely unecessary for the point Chris is making. We all understand word reclamation, there's no need for it to be spelled out by using objectionable terms.

If you think there's nothing wrong with that, I really have nothing further to say to you.

[chrismm.livejournal.com]

Uh uh. Uh. Uh. No. We had mouths like truck drivers when we were kids, and mom was at a loss as to how to deal with it, as she and dad had a deal about no spanking/hitting/etc., but that word, I guess she didn't care enough about shit and fuck to make an impact, but without ever hitting us or yelling she scared us to death the few times we tried experimenting with it. I can't even say it now, at 44, without whispering. I mean, she explained, but she explained with fierce emotion.

And. Word reclamation is for the people suffering under the abuse of the word. So if gay guys wanna say faggot, that's their choice. Lesbians get to say "dyke." People of color get to say "n...." Fuck, I can't even type it. *grin* Go, mom! People not in the group don't get to use it. Not and be considered good people.

[chrismm.livejournal.com]

Ahhhh! I meant to hit preview. I wanted to add--the only way to use it in a fic by a white person is if you're trying to make that white person look like either a complete asshole, or extremely ignorant and unthinking. Same with straight people using faggot and dyke.

[marej.livejournal.com]

psst. you know everything i can say already, so just *hugs*, k?

[superpana.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to act like no one ever turned into a dog and cover my ears and sing "la la la", so I can't really way in on this, even if I'm pretty sure I know what my reaction would be. But mosty I like starting sentences with "As a person of color who is queer and a woman" because I wonder if I can get some sort of government grant or something. So, you know, as a person of color who is queer and a woman, I doubt turning into a dog is half as charming as when Lance turned into a llama. Because that story was cute, yo.

[nopseud]

Of all the complaints I thought I might get about And Every Dog His Day, it wasn't about my choice of language in that section.

I honestly had no idea that the line would cause widespread offense. I think that there's an unfortunate cultural element at work here, with words not holding the same powerful resonances in different countries.

However, it's very clear that a number of people are offended, and I apologise unreservedly for the offense, hurt and upset caused -- it was not at all my intention. I'll amend the story appropriately. (There may be slight delay in the refresh of the slashcity page when I upload, but it *is* changed.)

I'm extremely grateful to stubbleglitterfor posting her objections out in the open where I could find it and other people could register their opinions.

I'm also posting this in my LJ.

[northern]

Hmm. It must be a cultural thing, yes, with the immense charge these words have in the US.

To me, the whole difference which made me think the passage was perfectly all right, is that Chris simply gives examples of words other minorities have taken back. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. It seemed perfectly sensible. But then, I live in Sweden. I don't have the cultural background you have, with words that are taboo to the extent that they are simply unmentionable, to anyone, ever, no matter the circumstances.

nopseud lives in Britain. It was probably hard for her to understand why throughadoor was *that* upset. If I had received her email, I would probably also have tried to explain what Chris is saying and why again, because I would have assumed she hadn't understood the point of the comment.

[bossymarmalade.livejournal.com]

words that are taboo to the extent that they are simply unmentionable, to anyone, ever, no matter the circumstances

It's not that they're "unmentionable", per se -- it's that the context has to be very specific in order to warrant using them, because they're such powerful and hurtful words. Perhaps it is more of a big deal in North America, but the thing is that there's a huge difference between a private and a public forum for these things. Putting those words into a public format will naturally draw very strong reactions if not used responsibly; it's necessary to have a modicum of cultural awareness in order to use them.

The context here wasn't designed to be derogatory, but it's the normalization of the words that, in my opinion, makes it even more disturbing.

[charlidos.livejournal.com]

I'm not American so I may not understand where you are coming from, but I really don't get this outrage at all. I'm a person who is very aware of racism etc. And I spend a lot of my time working against all kinds of discrimination. So I'd take offense, if there was any reason for it. Surely it can't be forbidden to say those words in any context? In this fic, they weren't even uttered as derogatory statements, just as examples. And they are just words! It's the context that makes them offensive, not the words in themselves. Right? I'm seriously completely baffled but I wanted to offer my point of view here.

[embitca.livejournal.com]

No. Context can make the words "more offensive" or "less offensive", but both words are designed to be offensive in themselves. There is no neutral definition for either one of them.

I would say also that you don't even appear to be trying to get the nature of the outrage. Many of the comments in this post explain pretty explicitly exactly what the problem is with those words, well enough that I would expect even someone who is not an American to be able to understand why we would find it so offensive even if the words have no particular impact on you.

[i-amthecosmos.livejournal.com]

Man, I sleep for a while and wake up to see that all hell's broken loose.

That is crazy. I mean...bad bad idea. Chris?! Nope nope nope, not my fanon!Chris, he wouldn't do that.

And yeah maybe Americans are a little fixated on words, but there's a reason for that. The stuff that was allowed in this country for years was horrifying and always had these words justifying it.

I'm from Alabama, when I leave the state I get judged as a racist right off the fuckin' bat. I'm not even gonna TYPE that shit.

[overloved.livejournal.com]

Can I give you snuggles?

[mitajoey.livejournal.com]

Thanks for posting about this. I read the passage and, even while I get what she was trying to say, it stung seeing it. For me, its one of those things where if you've ever been called that before (and even if you haven't), you would understand how awful the word really is. I guess since I "walk the walk" its okay for me to use it, but I can honestly say that I don't and I won't. Sadly, lots of non-blacks use the word just as casually nowadays, when referring to their non-black friends. I'm hoping that it isn't a sign of what we should expect to see more often.

WHOO HOOO!

[(Anonymous)]

Attack of the PC nazis! Censorship by lynchmob!

Anytime someone can't explain the idea of a minority using a word in a way that is offensive if used by outsiders and maintain some humor, it's a dark day. PULL YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES.

Re: WHOO HOOO!

[lain7.livejournal.com]

You obviously have no idea what censorship entails, but that doesn't matter. Anyone who compares the other side to the Nazis automatically loses the debate.

So long, loser.